Goddam liberal, get your facts straight. The CIA did ask Novak not to reveal Plame’s name. Think not? Well, here is Novak himself saying “He asked me not to use her name…” referring to his official CIA contact.

Novak goes on to say his official CIA contact told him Plame was working under the guise of another agency. But, Novak had an unidentified, unofficial source that said otherwise. So to be fair and balanced, he went with that.

Are you saying she was…undercover? Interesting, playa.

I wrote a little bit about this earlier today, Matt, though not in as keen detail as you have here. My focus was not on the legality so much as the implied level of responsibility that has to be met by someone working in the White House.

It’s strange how Republicans, who attacked Clinton’s, or even Kerry’s, use of “nuance” seem quite happy to use it for their own interests — only in this situation they use it for self-preservation, and poorly at that.

I’m not a Democrat any more than I am a Repub, but this whole thing (especially with these half-assed talking points) is really starting to get to me. Karl Rove and the people behind this administration are clever, but what this episode might bring out is how far “clever” can be from “wise.”

I say, regardless of the legal outcome, he should be fired on principle.

Go for it, Matt! I can’t wait to read your analysis and breakdown.

Yeah, sources. Tricky for the republicans. They have a habit of denying facts even when they’re staring right at them. We’ve got to keep hammering away though.

It’s outrageous that they’re defending this. But then it makes sense given what else they’re defending. The utter lack of support our troops are receiving from these “I Love Gitmo” wackos is outrageous and indefensible.

I think Aaron McGruder said it best after the 2000 elections. He said the democrats were punks and the republicans were gangsters. Yep. The dems roll over too often and the republicans lie, cheat, and behave like the criminals they are. Go get ‘em!!

Brilliantly done, my friend. Maybe you should open a diary on Kos for this one…this level of research and rebuttal should see as large an audience as possible. Great work.

Brilliantly done indeed, Matt. Well written, and strongly supported with the facts. This post deserves as big an audience as possible.

[…] Matt @ The Tattered Coat has brilliantly dissected the right’s talking points on Karl Rove. Read it, ’nuff said. […]

Atrios had a post about the claim that Wilson taked about his wife on a website. He’s the link:

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_07_10_atrios_archive.html#112117734240659839

Here’s Wilson “talking about his wife” (from a bio of him):

“He is married to the former Valerie Plame and has two sons and two daughters.”

Atrios put it in simple terms for “the very stupid people among us”:

“Valerie Plame’s name was not secret. The fact that she was married to Wilson was not secret. The fact that she worked for the CIA was.”

Sourcing Vanity Fair? Game Over, Matt. You did not even touch CavalierX’s responses to your wild assertations on this blog, let me refresh the memory and reveal what really happened on Blonde Sagacity’s blog….

———————————————————————————-

Plame was an undercover CIA agent.

No, she wasn’t. She retired from covert operations when Aldrich Ames was arrested in 1994. Or maybe you think a good cover for a CIA spy is being a CIA desk jockey.

>It is a crime to publicly disclose
>the identity of an undercover CIA
>agent.

No, it is a crime to disclose the identity of a covert operative. It is not a crime to “disclose” the fact that someone works for the CIA.

>It doesn’t matter where she was
>stationed

Wrong. Part of the IIPA is that it’s illegal to identify agents who have been assigned overseas in the last five years. Keep going; I see you’ve gotten the DNC talking points memo.

>now she will no longer be able to go
>out into the field?

She was a desk jockey with no secret cover. The only field she goes out in is the one where she picks daisies.

>Or that blowing her endangered the
>lives of her sources

That’s the reason for the “five year” rule, which time limit had long passed.

>who now know that the person they
>were talking to worked for the CIA

Hell, they could have picked THAT info up on the DC cocktail party circuit. Or in the pages of Vanity Fair.
——————————————————————————

Sorry SKYE, but have you seen or heard anything of Larry Johnson (a decorated former covert op, not to mention a Republican and former Bush campaign contributor)?

He’s not a liberal partisan, but a long-time Republican whose has more expertise and experience in CIA operations than just about anyone I’ve heard putting their opinion on this subject. He dispels quite a bit of what you, and many others, have been passing off as fact. He asserts that Plame was a covert op right up until Novak outed her in the press and, as an insider who knew both Plame and the CIA ops, asserts that the DC cocktail party circuit line is far from true.

So far, he’s the only one I’ve heard speak (without a pre-existing grudge against the Bush administration) who really knows the topic at hand from several angles. If I wasn’t a blind partisan, I think I’d give his words some careful consideration…

Here’s the link to what he wrote just the other day on this subject:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/13/04720/9340

Perhaps rather than look for a point by point refutation of some of the most nonsensical talking points in history, why not read the thoughts of someone who actually knows about the subject matter?

SYKE, what part of non-official cover officer didn’t you understand?

Unlike CavalierX, I’ve done my research. Where’s yours?

awesome job! really impressive!

Here is more info on Non-official cover, SYKE, just in case you’re google-impaired.

And I quote (from Time Magazine):

Matt, well done Sir!

I have nothing more to add to Matt’s points except that it is entirely possible to sit at a desk at Langley and still be covert, and even if not, to maintain a healthy covert network. I think ” an american” made that point for me already. It would be the height of idiocy in the age of the Internet to sit at a computer in your pajamas and assert that someone must be in the field to maintain a covert identity. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to share their real name and phone number here in the comments.

Great job on this, Tatt Matt. Linked you on this in latest Rove update by me at The Phantom Horror

[…] Our friend Matt at The Tattered Coat takes down the Rovian spin point by point. (Plus, there’s a great picture.) […]

Great piece - thanks.

Federal Employee Salary as Senior Adviser to the President: $157K/year.
Funds Available to smear opponents in 2004 Election Campaign $367 Million.
Ability to use classified information to character assassin political enemies: Priceless

great job, matt!
my one question for all the conservatives who are so bent on proving that Valerie Plame just had a desk job and therefore no crime was committed… why, then, was the administration originally so willing to take action against whomever had outted her because of the gravity of such an offense?? or were they just blowing sunshine up the ass of the american public?
either way you look at, it’s double speak — if it isn’t a big deal now, then it shouldn’t have been a big deal then. but it was. and the only factor that has changed in the situation between then and now is Rove. period.

thanks, everyone, for the kind words.

It looks like Rove has turned on Novak: Rove Reportedly Held Phone Talk on C.I.A. Officer

This is getting really good now.

I find it hilarious that not one conservative — ALa most conspicuously — has taken me up on my challenge to source any claim in the BS post. The few conservatives who have posted in this thread have just continued to provide more unsourced slime. That’s hardly suprising.

Shorter version: ALA is blowing smoke.

Not one of ALAs points, even if true and accurate, would excuse blowing an NOC cover.

Great Job man. Does this idiot SYKE think undercover agents go around with CIA tattoed on their forehead?

I am blowing smoke…but that’s from a Marlboro Light Menthol…ahhhhh…

Anyway, just wanted to check in and see what you think about the NYT (of all places) reporting that Rove learned Plame’s name from the media…

This is all quite laughable. Reminiscent of the “Blue Dress” and a waste of time when trains are being blown up. ANYONE that sat outside the FBI headquarters in Langley, VA could have seen Valerie coming and going for the past 5 years. No big secret there.

But HERE, my left leaning blog friend (and your left-leaning readers) is a test –let’s see how intellectually honest you are. Did you know that failed Presidential nominee John Kerry outted a CIA agent during John Bolten’s confirmation hearings? What say you?

P.S. I sourced everything.

Well done, Matt!!!

What amazes me about this entire fiasco are the GOP talking points, which primarily deal with discrediting Wilson.

Hate to break the news, but … IT DOESN’T FUCKING MATTER.

Tell me, those of you on the right, how what Wilson has said connects with what Rove may or may not have done? Some may say it has to deal with intent, but that doesn’t matter either. What matters is that Bush said those who were repsonsible would be punished, yet that has yet to happen.

Also tell me why the CIA asked the DoJ to look into the matter if there’s nothing wrong? One would think that, if she were just some glorified secretary, they wouldn’t give a crap.

While you’re at it, also tell (or, type to, in this case) me how an administration that praised itself on bringing respectability and accountability to the White House has done neither. They’re just like 99% of all politician—a bunch of liars who are more about furthering themselves, rather than doing what is right for the country.

I say “look to your own,” ALa:

Michelle Malkin: DID SENATORS BLOW A CIA AGENT’S COVER? NO.

Who’s being intellectually dishonest here? And what else have you got?

Fulton Armstrong’s name was mention in at least four previous media citations. Here Here Here and Here. More info on the alleged Kerry outing available is here. Not that it has a thing to do with the story at hand, but I figured I’d have a look at ALa’s request. Looks like you may be blowing smoke. Source is, of all people, Michelle Malkin. I need to go wash my monitor now.

Ah, crap. Matt already had it. Sorry to double up.

Did you notice there is no link to Michelle on my blog –she’s off on many things –the NEA being first and foremost.

“…According to a recently disclosed e-mail message that Mr. Cooper sent to his Time bureau chief in July 2003, Mr. Rove did not use Ms. Wilson’s name in the conversation or mention her undercover status. Rather, according to a copy of the message that Newsweek magazine said it had obtained, Mr. Rove had told Mr. Cooper only that it was “Wilson’s wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd [weapons of mass destruction] issues who authorized the trip” to Africa by Mr. Wilson.”… (NYT)

“Kerry blew the cover of [AN ACTUAL] CIA secret operative Fulton Armstrong during confirmation hearings for U.N. ambassador nominee John Bolton.

Questioning Bolton, Kerry asked: “Did Otto Reich share his belief that Fulton Armstrong should be removed for his position?” - according to a transcript excerpted by the New York Times.

“The answer is yes,” the top Democrat continued.

In his response to Kerry, Mr. Bolton did his best to maintain the agent’s confidentiality, reverting to the Armstrong’s pseudonym.

“As I said,” he told Kerry, “I had lost confidence in Mr. Smith, and I conveyed that.”

Two years earlier, Armstrong had been identified in news reports on his dispute with other officials over intelligence involving Cuba. But he was operating in a different capacity and his identity wasn’t secret at the time.

“When the Bolton nomination resurrected the old accounts, however, the C.I.A. asked news organizations to withhold his name,” the Times said.

Apparently the CIA directive wasn’t good enough for Sen. Kerry - who outed Armstrong anyway and later defended the move by saying his Republican colleague, Senator Richard Lugar, had also mentioned the name. (Boston Herald)

And besides, said Kerry, the secret agent’s name “had already been in the press.”

More deflection, ALa. Kerry and Lugar may have been guilty of ignoring a warning that they didn’t receive — because, as you note, it was given not to them, but to news organizations — but the fact is that Kerry could not have been guilty of revealing a covert agent’s identity if it had already been revealed in the press.

As for the defense that Rove’s lawyer has given — that Rove “didn’t say her name” — I wrote about that in the post above:

Keep ‘em coming — this is fun.

ALa: piddling detail, but FBI headquarters is on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington DC. CIA headquarters is the one in Langley VA, and sitting outside of it not only wouldn’t give you much more than a glimpse of a passing car, it would likely earn you a brief detention by Federal officers. There are a number of people at the George Bush Center for Intelligence (the official title for the CIA complex) who might not be known for what they actually are.

Matt et al: Dr. Lewis is a close personal friend and is painstaking in his research and analysis. If he says it, you can take it to the bank.

“There are a number of people at the George Bush Center for Intelligence (the official title for the CIA complex) who might not be known for what they actually are.”

EXACTLY Public… so Rove saying that she worked there revealed nothing –and it was David Corn and Joe Wilson himslef who disclosed that she was supposedly “covert” in the Nation article two days after Novak’s article ran (Novak only said she worked at the CIA –TONS of people work at the CIA)

[…] Tattered Coat has a great analysis of the situation with Rovegate/Plamegate/whateveryoucallit. He’s got it all covered. […]

I think he actually referred to her as an “Operative” rather than as an employee. I won’t parse his words, but have a look this post on TPM about Novak’s prior use of that word. It’s pretty consistent.

well done matt!

have you seen this? even if the grand jury buys rove’s current story (that novak brought up plame first, rove just confirmed what novak already knew), it counts as an “unauthorized disclosure.”

for that matter, even if rove didn’t violate the IIPA, rove still has a problem with the espionage act.

also, according to scott mcclellan, rove assured the mcclellan that “i didn’t discuss valerie plame with anyone.” but that is now contradicted by rove’s own attorney. so (unless the president’s spokesperson is lying), rove violated 18 u.s.c. 1001 (a particularly popular statute back when i took my white collar crime class in law school)

rove is going down. i just have a hard time believing that right-wingers are actually standing by this guy despite its national security implications. if anyone outside the president’s inner circle did it (or even, gasp, a democrat), they would be screaming for his/her head.

the tattered rove

matt at the tattered coat is arguing point-by-point the details of the rove thing-a-ma-bob with a right wing friend of his…

So Kerry’s justification is that the press had already outed ‘real’ covert Operative? Well, the NYTs says that’s Rove’s too…

“Mr. Rove has told investigators that he learned from the columnist the name of the C.I.A. officer, who was referred to by her maiden name, Valerie Plame, and the circumstances in which her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, traveled to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq, the person said.
After hearing Mr. Novak’s account, the person who has been briefed on the matter said, Mr. Rove told the columnist: “I heard that, too.”
The previously undisclosed telephone conversation, which took place on July 8, 2003, was initiated by Mr. Novak, the person who has been briefed on the matter said.”
(NYT)

Rove got his info from the press…

Sorry kids, no crime here. Plame was not undercover or abroad. Plame was not being actively kept secret by her employer. Rove never said her name. Rove didn’t know she was covert (because she wasn’t). Employment at the CIA isn’t classified information. Corn and Wilson were the first to say that she was ‘covert’. Plame is so covert that she did a spread in Vanity Fair? *laughing*

It’s been fun –see you for the real fight… Supreme Court nominations! ;)

your stomach for this stuff is much stronger than mine. good work — so many groundless talking points, so little time!

ALa… heh heh heh… seriously. Remember earlier?

It would be the height of idiocy in the age of the Internet to sit at a computer in your pajamas and assert that someone must be in the field to maintain a covert identity. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to share their real name and phone number here in the comments.

You don’t seriously think someone has to be abroad to do spy stuff, do you? If so, there are some people at NSA I’d like you to meet. Problem is, you couldn’t know they worked there. Why? Because the very act of telling you is a no-no for some of them. You could conceivably violate the IIPA over a beer at Ruby Tuesday. But that isn’t really the point, is it?

If you were to hold tightly to this “no crime committed” thing it still wouldn’t matter. What White House Deputy Chief of Staff is in the habit of confirming CIA employment (anyone’s) to the news media? Why would you do that? To warn someone off a story that you thought wouldn’t hold up? Well, let’s think through what would have happened if the story were bogus and if if Rove had kept quiet. The story would have been covered pretty much as it was, and investigative journalism would have led where it did. Which is where, you ask? Exactly where we are today. What’s Rove’s role in programming news coverage, and why is it worth his acting as the human resources department for the intelligence community?

This just doesn’t pass the smell test. Whether laws were broken or not, it was an unnecessary intervention and an extraordinary ethical lapse.

This one really pisses me off beyond all belief:

ALa’s claim: “Wilson had no credentials that warranted it”

Not only is ALa forgetting Amb. Wilson’s ambassadorship, she is forgetting that he was the defacto Ambassador to Iraq after April Glaspie bailed in 1991. Wilson’s acts of defiance against Saddam are legendary, and were immortalized in the Michael Keaton movie, “Live from Baghdad”. Joe Wilson showed more balls in the face of adversity than 100 Ala’s and her chickenhawk brethren. By the way, is ALa of the age to join the Army or Marines? Here’s how BBC views Joe Wilson, Patriot:

Ambassador Joseph Wilson had already earned a footnote in history before his wife was revealed as a CIA agent, prompting a furious political storm in Washington.

He later told the Washington Post newspaper that the message to Saddam Hussein was: “If you want to execute me, I’ll bring my own [expletive] rope.” …

ALa and her bretheren (I’m sorry, Matt) don’t have the right to sniff Joe Wilson’s jockstrap, much less disparage his service to the country.

Sorry kids, no crime here. Plame was not undercover or abroad. Plame was not being actively kept secret by her employer. Rove never said her name. Rove didn’t know she was covert (because she wasn’t). Employment at the CIA isn’t classified information

(1) read my above comment. she didn’t have to be abroad to violate the espionage act. (also, she may have been abroad within the five year period. we don’t know for sure that she wasn’t)

(2) if plame was “not being actively kept secret by her employer” why did her employer (the CIA) ask the justice department to commence a criminal investigation in the days after the novak column? the CIA (her employer) sure was acting as if they considered her to be covert. they also seemed to think that a crime had been committed when she was outed.

The Tattered Takedown

We’ve all had the opportunity to read / hear / see the wingnut proxie talking points that have hit the airwaves and print in the last 24 hours - TreasonGate is all Joe Wilson’s fault.

Matt @ Tattere…

Shit. What was the Republican spin word going around for the last few years? Oh yes. “Accountability.”

Public -Read the statutes of the law… yes, someone has to be abroad. It was designed for overseas CIA agents during the Cold War.

You’re parsing like Clinton, ALa.

By the way, ALa, I can refer you to a recruiter friend of mine…he’s not having much luck recently. He’d be happy to speak with you.

The more I think about it, ALa, just STFU. I wouldn’t want you in the armed forces I served in. You couldn’t carry my jockstrap, either, much less Joe Wilson’s.

My credentials…

I think you’re referring to § 421 paragraph (c):

(c) Disclosure of information by persons in course of pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents Whoever, in the course of a pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States, discloses any information that identifies an individual as a covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such individual and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such individual’s classified intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

Design and applicability are different things. I believe one could make a reasonable case that, in an age in which both covert operations and the organization of terror cells rely heavily on technology, IIPA is a matter of duty rather than location.

But ALa, what of this business of White House Deputy Chiefs of Staff confirming intelligence agency employment? If it isn’t illegal, if it isn’t retributive, isn’t it at the very least… petty? Do you understand what the Office of the Chief of Staff does? To make something like this the business of the person in that role smacks of organizational incompetence at the very least.

I have a great deal of respect for you, RC, especially for your service. That said, I hope we won’t walk away from what has become a valuable exchange because of the passion behind these positions. It’s rare that I get to see liberals and conservatives in a healthy debate, and I hope you’re not aiming to end that. I also hope ALa won’t stop contributing here. We can all learn a lot.

Respectfully,

jl

Richard: why so touchy? You shouldn’t judge before you know…I am sure there are TONS of boys (and one girl) over there that thank God I am here. I heard a rumor they like CDs, Tatsykakes, socks, razors, DVDs and Maxim mags that come with monthly regularity…. and you would be shocked to know how many of their families have stopped sending mail/packages. Thank you Sir for your service –and though, coming from a military family, I greatly appreciate it…I think I will pass on the whole jock strap thing (unless of course your really hot…)

JLo:
Yes, that was my point…this may be petty (though I honestly don’t think so as Rove wasn’t the one seeking out the press–there were calling him), but it isn’t illegal. Much as the blue dress was petty, but not illegal. You must know that I feel justified standing up for Rove here (in what I feel is a witch hunt) because I also stood up for Clinton during the Monica fiasco. I was not on that bandwagon (and you can imagine how well that went over with other Republicans) –and I don’t like petty politics regardless of what party is practicing them… Thanks for your thoughts though and for being open minded enough to consider that it may just be petty politics instead of some mass premeditated crime.

Matt, that was a fantastic post. Thanks for taking the time to write it. I also enjoyed reading the comments.

It astounds me that conservatives will just ignore the facts of a case and take the republican talking points as gospel. It is frustrating to me that they are taking the attitude that “liberals are just mad because they lost the election.” As if this is a partisan issue (that hasn’t been said here, but I’ve heard it said elsewhere). I, as an American, am concerned. This is a serious matter. Treason could have been committed here. And I want to know what part our president had in all of this. I am not mad because our side lost the election. That is shallow and insulting. I am mad because a member of my president’s administration (a very powerful member) could have committed a treasonist act. Don’t they understand the seriousness of this?

Weird, ALa - we agree on something. I wouldn’t go so far as to say there’s no crime here; the evidence is pretty strong that something untoward has happened. Still, there’s no harm in either side contemplating the various possibilities from organizational incompetence to premeditated treason. I’d like to see more of that. We might learn something from it.

By the way, I use both a Mac and a PC. When using the PC I am labeled “publicorgtheory”; when on the Mac I am JLo. I’m not sure why, but both are me.

Nice post, Matt; and thanks for addressing the “misnomer” mistake. That was my first clue that ALa was an idiot, and subsequent comments confirm it.

JLo, just because ALa isn’t engaging in vulgar name-calling does not mean you’re having a healthy debate. See, ALa still believes this is petty partisan bickering despite the fact that there is an ongoing investigation that would never have been initiated if there were nothing to the charges. She believes Rove is just an innocent bystander despite his record of using dirty tricks and smear tactics to promote his boss’ agenda - one such trick being almost identical to the Wilson smear, for which he was fired by GHWB. She believes that no harm was done in outing a CIA “desk jockey,” conveniently ignoring the fact that while Plame may not have been an active NOC at the time she was outed, she had been instrumental in setting up a global network monitoring proliferation of WMDs that had to be rolled up, greatly limiting our access to intelligence at a time when we need it the most. Finally, she believes that scoring political points is more important than national security, and for that, she can be easily dismissed as an idiot conduit for RNC talking points. Not only that, her conviction is so fragile, she’s willing to abandon all of her beliefs to sniff RC’s jockstrap if he’s a hottie.

Did I miss anything?

iac, it’s more about tone for me than the content. It’s also not a debate between ALa and me. There’s a discussion here among a bunch of people, some of whom add up the facts they know or think they know and arrive at different conclusions. You may disagree with ALa (as I do, and for most of the reasons you list above), but the very fact of the discussion happening is pretty unusual, and I think that’s something worth trying to understand.

Rove’s a dirty guy. You’d probably be able to get agreement on that from a healthy majority of the people on either side of this largely polarized debate. The investigation’s going to go where the investigation goes. If there has been a crime committed by Rove or anyone else, Fitzgerald is the right person to prove it and prosecute it. That’s going to come out.

Additionally, public opinion is building strong momentum. To paraphrase Nixon, you probably won’t have Turd Blossom to kick around anymore. The press doesn’t like being misled (something Scott’s finding out day after day this week), and they’re showing more sack than at any time in the last five years.

There’s a real strength in being able to adopt a differing or opposing view for a few minutes in order to understand it and the person who holds it. That doesn’t mean you adopt that view, nor that you tolerate its irrationality. But you understand it, poke it, prod it, pull it apart…learn how it works. I believe that if we did that a little more, we might be able to confront the implicit assumptions that bring others (and us) to the assumptions underpinning these arguments. At the very least we’d be better debaters.

Voltaire and Lincoln both had some useful things to say about this. Are we two countries, and are we willing to cease debate when we don’t agree with others’ opinions? Look at the comments above; some of them are absolutely ignorant. Are we afraid to test logic against that? The talking points are an easy mark. I think the facts are up to the challenge.

The larger picture for me, though, is that there is a discussion here. At all. Where else do you find that these days? It’s sorely lacking in a country that badly needs a discussion about what really matters. It’s not perfect, but it’s a start.

Awesome post, Matt. And love to [most] commentors (commentaters? common-taters?) on both sides for stepping up to present really interesting points/facts to argue and that are serving as their own fodder. This could go on forever. Or, when McClellan decides to say something worthwhile. Either way. Which brings me to JLo: After reading all 54 comments that came before me, my favorite is your touch on Scott McClellan and the press; it has been the most fun to watch him continue to repeat himself like an ineffective parent while journalists get ballsier and ballsier in their wtf?!’s:
-[on Rove] “He put you on the spot. He put your credibility on the line.”
-[on defending Rove] “You people are on the record, one quote after another.”
-[on monopolizing the questioning] “It’s not my job to have constructive dialogue, Scott — sorry.”
-[on holding questions for the end of the investigation] Scott: “… and I think that is something the American people can appreciate.” press: “Well, we’ll see…”

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050712-4.html

This IS fun.

holy crap is all this awesome. glad to see an actual discussion going on here and not too much name calling which is refreshing. great stuff matt and ALa, glad you came on over here, not all on the other side of the blog fence is brave enough to do so, you got some balls, and who cares that they’re not between your legs. i know not too many libs will go over to your side of the fence. hopefully you’ll come on out to one of our meetups for some face to face, civil talking.

we really need more discussion though. i don’t think that there need to be fences separating us.

Tattered Coat’s Take on The Great Rovian Sit ‘n Spin

Kudos to Matt over at Tattered Coat on h

One thing that I see routinely ignored by folks like ALa is the inconsistency between their assertion that Plame was a desk jockey and no outing occurred and the fact that the investigation started at the request of the CIA, because THEY said an operative’s identity had been disclosed. The investigation never would have happened if the CIA hadn’t requested it - and they wouldn’t have requested it if her role at the CIA wasn’t covert.

Armchair analysts can debate the law and talk about whether or not it applies because of the five year rule, but it’s all hot air. The CIA notified the Justice Dept. that one of its covert operative’s cover was blown and the Justice Dept. - responsible for interpreting the federal law and investigating/prosecuting breaches of the law responded to what they clearly perceived as a potential crime. The debate isn’t whether she was covert - it’s whether there was an intentional disclosure of that fact.

Arguing her status is a diversion that clouds the issue. If her status is challenged, the answer is that the CIA is the definitive source on the issue and they say she was covert. End of discussion.

Kathy’s is an important point, one I haven’t seen addressed on the conservative side.

I’ll state it once again, simply, for ALa (and any other BushCo Crime Family supporters; wouldn’t want ALa to think I was picking specifically on her):

Joe Wilson exhibited more guts under fire than any of you could ever hope to - unless, that is, you’re willing to put yourself in the same postion.

My “Joe Wilson No Excuse Challenge™ “ to you - get down to your nearest Army or Marine recruiter on Monday morning. They are desperately short of footsoldiers for this war and the criminal enterprise that you support. Joe Wilson served with honor and panche in Iraq. Those of you who are so quick to discount Joe Wilson’s guts and service to the U.S. are now honor bound to show you’re as good as he (or better) and show up in Baghdad for duty.

When you’re of enlistment age, care packages don’t count. Your grandma can send those. When you’re of enlistment age, yellow ribbon magnets on your vehicle don’t count. They’re made in China, anyway. When you’re of enlistment age, and you support the war, you are duty bound to participate, no excuses, particularly when there is such an acute shortage of recruits.

Don’t want to go to the recruiter’s office? They’ll come to you.

No more excuses. None. ALa, et.ux., when you’ve signed up, let me know so I can start putting together a care package for you.

Well, I found were Dick is getting his talking points …funny though, I can’t find anything about Joe Wilson being a veteran….
You are a nasty person –I am surprised Matt holds you in such high regard. I will send the military boys out tomorrow to speak with you –then you will have to address the questions and stop hiding behind your clever little smoke screen.

Kathy: I watched an interview today with the woman that co-wrote the law in question…why don’t you look up what she had to say. I think you’ll find it enlightening.

And just so everyone is aware -yes, I will come here and debate civilly -even when I am the lone conservative being attacked on all sides. Various readers here have linked me on their blogs calling me…
Wing nut
Treason apologist
Ugly
Dumb
Skanky
Yet I am still willing to debate and I have lefty blogs linked on my site. I don’t hide in the shadows and only speak to my cheerleaders. One site went so far as to DENY my ability to answer comments on the site where I was linked and being talked about disparagingly. So much for the “party of free speech”… So un-cool…

I thought the purpose of blogs was to promote discourse and dialogue –that’s why mine exists and it works and it happens. There are people from the left and right and we have discussions like the one this thread that you are all so shocked over ALL THE TIME.
I read a blog-study that showed that right blogs link left blogs -but that the opposite rarely happens. Then I read Dan Rubins’ piece on Atrios where he said that he thought blogs were all about talking with your own camp. If my blog was only cheerleaders urging me on I would be bored to tears –and what would I learn? If you all enjoy preaching to the choir –go for it, but don’t pretend you want debate and urge politicians to “reach across the aisle” when you can’t even allow a dissenting opinion on your insignificant blog.

I will also say that it’s very easy to copy & paste someone else’s piece and dissect it. Anyone that has taken an English class or two knows that editing is much easier than writing something original. I know that Matt didn’t mean to be malicious -but my piece was written at 1 am the night before as an opinion piece –you can look through my site and see that I normally source out everything…for the record. I don’t edit other’s posts –it’s too easy and it’s a cheap shot. But hey, I seem to be a lot more honorable than most here…

1. I’ve never been to vetsforjustice.com. Ever. What spills from my keyboard is from me. I don’t need talking points from anyone, ALa.

2. I don’t know if Joe Wilson is or was a vet, and that’s not the point. You obviously didn’t read my earlier post way upthread about Joe Wilson being the last American diplomat in Baghdad before Gulf War I. That’s where guts were displayed.

As far as me being a nasty person? Nah. I just don’t suffer fools very well.

Is it inevitable that this comment thread will deteriorate into a series of personal insults? I’d like to think not; but it may already be too late.

I ask everyone to follow two simple rules:

1. Attack the arguments, not the person making the argument;

2. Source your claims whenever possible.

I reserve the right to delete off-topic or abusive comments. We can do better than a flame war.

I don’t have the time to parse what’s above, but let me just echo Matt’s sentiment: we can do better than a flame war. Are any of us scared that our logic won’t stand up?

JLo writes:

July 16th, 2005 at 12:29 pm

Great post

Oooookayyy.. Now that it’s 3 am and I am losing my one glass of wine buzz.. nevermind the fact that I drove 10 hours today after very little sleep last night… I’d like to write my very insignificant piece…

I will attempt to do so coherently while also trying to abide by the rules set forth in the previous post by this particular blog’s author.

::deep breath::

All I really want to say is that I’m very sorry. But consider this. You will never know the real truth to everything. Sources, no sources.. newspapers, media.. spokespersons, officials, blah blah blah..

The Intelligence community is an interesting animal of a very different breed. You may think you know.. you may believe you know.. you may even conjure if you wish, all the information you want on what a person’s job is, who they are and what they’re doing.. what they’ve done, what their purpose is/was/will-be. You may think if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.. and some ’source’ told you it was a duck.. that it is a duck. That’s the point. You’re supposed to think it is a duck.

This is almost amusing to me because so much energy is being expended. It is after all, an intriguing subject. America is in love with her spies and her counterintelligence agents.. right? Just look at the networks most popular TV shows.. I don’t know a single guy I work with that doesn’t LOVE 24… lmao.

I’m pretty sure that someone f*cked up on this one and that their ass is going to get handed to them… and IMHO I doubt that would be happening.. that any of this would be happening if it were not that serious. But I’m not going to pretend that I understand what it is they are up to.. because just when you think you got this animal figured out.. it was something else all along and you will never know it. That IS THE POINT behind the CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY. Ya think they’re going to lay it all out for you? lol

Everyone in this game has their motives.. that would include The Company. You’re highly underestimating one of, if not the most elusive and secretive organization in the world. Even the cover story has a cover story on top of a cover story… it’s a psychological mind fuck.. that’s the point.. that’s their job.. that’s the game. Nothing is what it seems and yet there is not bullshit. The point is to have you chasing your tail so you’re not really focusing on the real issues.. on the deeper issues. Give the public something to chew on to play with and to keep them busy so they miss the real point. Ahh.. we’re all just pawns. Sorry.. that’s my opinion… no source to quote.. And the minute you underestimate something in which you think you know.. you’ve already lost your argument.. I think Sun Tzu hit that point a little differently.. but same concept.

Please forgive all grammar and spelling mistakes.. I’m sooooo sleepy.

Oh yeah.. and so far this has been intriguing, to say the least. I’m a loyal ALa of Blonde Sagacity reader.. and a left-leaning-liberal-democratic-voting, blah blah blah (except don’t touch my guns) Army Girl.. and let me tell you something.. without getting into trouble from Matt hopefully..

I left my 6 figure a year income, my very large home, my friends, my family and everything else that meant shit to me to serve in the US Army Reserves as a tour baby.. which meant an SICKENING pay cut and which also means I never get to see home cause I volunteer for open tours and deployments. I put off the possibility and consideration of a family, children, a ‘normal’ life.. I did so so that people like her.. ALa.. who have a family and other priorities DON’T HAVE to.. which I’m sure is why a lot of men/women serve.. so that their loved ones and their children/grandchildren will hopefully not have to fight in a future war. Do not challenge her patriotism or her dedication to this country and this war.. nor to the American Soldier. There are several ways to serve this country and our nation dammit.

I would gladly put my life on the line for hers.. a woman that’s doing her best to raise her children.. while simultaneously unselfishly spending money I THINK COULD BE SPENT ON HER OWN NEEDS and those of her CHILDREN to support the troops in the Sandbox… a woman that (although I don’t usually agree with her opinions) is not afraid to say what she thinks or feels and who puts herself out there to the open, blatant and rude criticism from others… and who had the BALLS to come over here and defend her opinions nevermind the facts. I don’t see ANY of her readers here doing the same with the grace and lightheartedness that is ALa.

Don’t put down people because they don’t, can’t, or won’t serve… it’s low, it’s useless and it’s unbecoming of a Veteran. It’s bitter.. and there’s just no need for it. I bust my ass so others don’t have to.. so that they can sit at home in their civilian jobs, or in their homes at their computers writing commentary and debating issues such as these.. no matter how ridiculous. I don’t give a damn what you do back here.. so long as you love doing it and my being over there helps you do something you love. You know how it is.. we defend the rights of everyone here.. What would be the point of me over there if every one in America was over there? Who would be enjoying the freedom we’re trying so hard to secure? Who would be raising our nations’ children? Taking care of our elderly if every able bodied, of age person was serving?

ugh.. I’m sorry.. but that just really gets me. I defend myself and leftists, liberals and democrats all the time on Ala’s blog.. and have taken a few … well several heat rounds myself.. and I come to this blog and think.. finally.. some sense! and end up defending a right wing, conservative… lmao. Oh the irony is killing me. ALa has even defended me and my views several times on HER blog..

I guess I just don’t fit in anywhere. I’m just going to create my own damn political party.

Sorry for the really obsessive rant.. but as my favorite quote… and as I will hold up to Ala..

“I may not agree with a word that you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it.” Voltaire

Doesn’t mean I have be mute about it though. ::grumble grumble::

Phoenix Out

ALa - I’m glad you got to watch an interview with the woman who co-wrote the law. But her intended meaning in writing it is not relevant to the issue. The CIA reported that a covert agent’s cover had been blown, possibly the result of a criminal act. The Justice Dept. determined that the law in question and as written applied to the situation and is investigating through a special prosecutor.

It doesn’t matter what I think the law says, what you think the law says, or even what the original authors of the law thinks it says. What matters is what the Justice Dept. thinks - and they clearly think that it applies.

The only intriguing thing to me about the conservatives argument that Plame wasn’t covered by the law is the inherent low opinion of the Justice Dept. that requires. If the law really doesn’t apply and the Justice Dept. couldn’t figure that out, then we’re all in deep trouble.

I obviously came to the right place to learn about the Rove leak of the CIA agent Valerie Plame. Thanks for making this happen Matt! Amid a plethora of news reports and blogs none have the great info this blog has. Having someone in Rove’s high ranking position betray our country because of politics is something I want to stay informed on.

It has been stated that he has been on the inside of every major political and policy decision of the Bush administration. The man is the #1 advisor to the President of our great Nation! Everyone knows that he had a dirty political agenda when he outed Plame to get at her husband for standing up to the Bush administration’s exaggeration of the Iraqi threat. Now I am a big boy and realize that dirty politics are played on both sides of the isle but this is an act of treachery that can not be overlooked. There are times that I hear a loud plane overhead and wonder in the back of my mind if it is a nuclear explosion, no shit! WMD’s and the threat of attack of US soil in the air, this man identified an agent whose job it was to track them from various countries, puting our country more at risk than ever.

Why won’t Bush publicly and forcefully remove this man from his position? Of course I would demand the same from a Democratic leader. I was angered a few years ago when I heard about this leak but slightly relieved when Bush stated that anyone jeopardizing the security of our country would be dealt with accordingly. I never thought that they would find the one who gave up our undercover agent but they did and now no matter how much the Republicans want to stand by this traitors side he is going to pay for his mistake.

Man it is great to voice my opinion on this blog and ALa, I’m glad that you participated in this because the arguments back and forth have lead me to a better understanding of the whole.

Well at least some of the comments on this thread have been attempting to discuss an issue and get down to facts and opinion.

And as a loyal reader of Ala’s site for about the year she has been blogging I can validate you can have honest and open discussions without being banned. I don’t always agree with eveything she writes, but she sources her information and states her opinion. And I respect her opinion even if I don’t agree with all of them.

What everyone is forgetting here is simply that you don’t know what the facts are. An investigation is going on. The administration is cooperating fully with it. I do know that off of circumstancial evidence the media, the DNC and others have indicted and convicted Karl Rove of treason. And want him fired. I say let the investigation continue. And let the chips fall where they may. Wilson’s partisanship and ability to spin the truth is without question. I also believe his wife got him the job to investigate Nigerian yellowcake. Whether Rove outted her is something no one knows. Patience is essential to good democracy. But patience isn’t the Democratic Parties strong suit. I say wait for the answers from the independant investigator.

And if Richard would like to invite me down to the recruiting station to take an oath I will say this: I took that oath on November 5th 1986 and I still serve today as an active duty Army artillery officer, and combat veteran. I have gone to war for this country and I am prepared to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. I will defend your right to spout small minded opinions even if personally disagree. And the Army missed a few recruiting goals. My Division hasn’t and we have quality Americans coming from all over this great land and quite a few foreign nations that could teach all of us great lessons in what it takes to make and keep America free. And it is an All Volunteer Force…I don’t want you if you don’t want to be here.

Richard you seem to have a great contempt for those that disagree with you. The quality of a man is seen in what he does and not what he says. I follow my President’s orders as my Commander in Chief because he is my Commander in Chief, but I am glad that once once in good long time that we have a President who says what he means and means what he says. Our enemies know this now, but the DNC does not seem to understand that we are at war.

Click on my name for my contribution to the Rove debate.

Army Girl, I respectfully disagree with you. I think it’s great that you are serving. It seems to be something you are proud of and are happy to do. My husband is in Afghanistan right now with the national guard. It doesn’t make him special or exceptional. He’s still a man, and like you, he chose to serve for his own reasons. I’m really uncomfortable with the whole idea of someone asserting they are serving in the military FOR me. I didn’t ask you to serve for me. I didn’t ask my husband to serve for me (though he would never say someone did). But really I don’t care why you serve or what motivates you. For every soldier serving there is a different motivation, even if those differences are slight.

I’m still pissed off at the Bush administration for treating the military and all who serve in it like crap. Lack of equipment, short on VA funding, the list goes on and on. And I’m pissed that he started an unprovoked war under dubious justifications. But I’m on the side of all soldiers, regardless of why they signed up. If they’re crazy conservatives or wacky liberals, I don’t care. They deserve true respect, which means they should have proper equipment and support in the field and health care when they get home. As I’m sure you’re aware, “part-time” soldiers and their families don’t have health care as soon as they get off the plane from their active duty service. This is particularly harsh given that so many have lost their jobs because of lengthy deployments. I don’t know if you’re an active duty soldier with the reserves or a more typical part-time reservist. Regardless, I assume you care about how your fellow soldiers are being treated.

Having said that, I think it’s completely valid to question people who support a war, are able-bodied, but choose not to fight. It is the ultimate in hypocrisy to support a war that is being fought by volunteer soldiers and not volunteer yourself. The military is strapped. They are stretched. The only reason you may be deployed, as a reservist, is because the active duty army is so understaffed. We are using reservists and national guardsmen at an unprecedented level. Why is that? Because not enough people are signing up. This is curious to me given that Bush won the last election with a majority vote, implying that a majority support his war in Iraq. It’s even more curious to me when I go online and read rant after rant written by young conservatives who are able to fight but choose not to. I can only assume it is because they feel superior to people like you and my husband. They think you SHOULD fight for them. They’re happy to send you over. And they’d prefer not to make any sacrifices at home either.

Good luck, Army Girl. Regardless of how motivated you are, I hope you aren’t sent to Iraq or Afghanistan and separated from your family. It sucks. I hope you aren’t maimed or killed over there. I hope, instead, you’re able to contribute fully to our country and live out a full life.

Take care –

I forgot to include in my last comment that I think an essential part of supporting our troops is to only send them to war as a last resort. It’s immoral and extremely unsupportive to send soldiers to war on false pretenses because war is violence, against soldiers and civilians, and causes chaos and destruction.

That’s it!

Take care –

Kate

We’re contributing fully to our country by serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. I beleive that and so do most of the people I serve with. Being maimed and killed in the line of duty is something I and most other military members deal with everyday. I hope and train instead to maim and kill our countries enemies without earning a purple heart myself. I’m sorry you don’t understand that. I train to fight my enemy overseas so that scenes like you saw on 9/11 or in London recently do not happen here again.

I think your husband probably understands that. And he chose to serve, as did I. His motivations don’t matter much to you, but he chose to protect and defend the nation in which he lives. The greater versus the self. I applaud your support for our troops though you deride the cause. My opinion is you cannot support the soldier if you do not support the cause for which he is fighting. Without that support, you rob him of his reason for being and you help the enemy fight him better. My opinion. Recruiting goals are down, and I think it is mainly due to the very real possibility of new soldiers going to Iraq. With the death vigil the MSM has sounded about the entire enterprise I would think twice too. But remember the MSM said the same things about Afghanistan– remember that quagmire? Strange you don’t hear much about it nowadays.

If you think we are ill supported go over to Iraq or Afghanistan and see the sheer amount of men and material we have doing the work of free men. Not ill supported at all. Turn off your TV news and get out there and find out what you are talking about instead of parroting your talking points. Mistakes get made in every war, people die. Innocent people sometimes. But keeping a brutal dictator in power is better? Please tell me with the conviction of one who knows what they are talking about that Iraq and Afghanistan are worse off now than they were prior to our intervention.

Figure out whose side you’re on. I keep expecting people like you to start doing blood drives for the poor undermanned and beleaguered terrorists. You do not have a majority on your side. You have a continually harping minority with a death grip on the MSM. Just because people don’t agree with you doen’t make them wrong. And simply because others choose not to perfrom military duty does not make them any less of a citizen. But I have done service and I have seen the places you are talking about. And I serve my country and follow my Commander in Chief because he says what he means and means what he says. He doesn’t try to make chicken salad out of chicken s&@t like the DNC spins. And that means a lot to me.

Amen Redleg!

*high fives Redleg*

Interesting. You think it’s ‘great’ that I am serving? And let me get this straight.. you don’t think your own husband is ’special or exceptional,’ because he serves? Look lady.. I can’t help you with how you feel about your husband’s service, much less mine. Hell, I can’t help you at all directly. But yes, I’m damn proud of what I do.. indirectly to serve for people like you. That’s like walking up to a firefighter and telling him that you think it’s cute that he loves his job and likes what he does.. but you’re not asking him to save your or your children’s if your home catches on fire. Give me a break. Yeah.. the funny thing is. You’re never really appreciated until it’s damn near too late. You never saw so many yellow ribbons around in the past HALF a century as you see now. And having grown up in the military.. I’ve NEVER seen soldiers get the respect they get now that America needs them.

‘Respectfully disagree’ and then subtly putting me down is an interesting tactic. I won’t use those words to cover my defense. As a matter of fact.. I’m only replying because this saddens me. I didn’t ask you, nor was I replying to you about whether or not you give a shit if, why, when or how I serve. Frankly, it’s really not your business if you don’t care for it to be. And that post was publicly posted, but not directed towards you. So if you don’t like what you read.. ok. Don’t read it. Don’t care. Obviously though, you cared enough to comment at length about something that wasn’t even for your benefit.

And as far as your opinions.. you’re of course entitled to them.. most of them I will leave alone but I will say this. If I thought that you were at all sincere about half of what you said directed towards me.. There’d be a ‘give-a-shit’ factor. But the truth is I think you said most of it to prove your point rather than really because you give a shit about whether or not I come home.. in one piece or several.

As far as all the crap about supplies and being treated well.. I just have to roll my eyes when people go on and on about that crap. You know what? We’re at war. And we do the best we can with what we have.. it’s how you get through life. You can’t sit around with your thumb up your ass worried about things that are not going to ‘poof’ out of thin air. You don’t join thinking it’s going to be easy… it’s the military!!! It’s a MILITARY. We fight wars when necessary. I’m sorry but your husband, I would hope, knew damn well what he was getting himself into when he went Guard. I’m sorry your family doesn’t have medical (although I’m pretty sure they get it for 90 days after the guys get home) and I’m sorry that he lost his job. But you know what? Suck it up and drive on. Whether you like it or not.. you’re in the Service too.. and so are your kids. You, together with your husband find ways to make it work.. and you stick by each other like a team. You ride the rough waves and you coast the easy ones.. but you’ve got to navigate or you’re going to end up desolate and blaming the gov’t for your ‘inconveniences.’

Well.. I’m pretty sure the victims of 9/11 and their survivors are a bit inconvenienced as well…. but they have to suck it up.. they’ve got to move on with their lives and make the most that they can with what they have left. We all do. It’s what makes us human.

Yes, there are things that are not right that are happening..but it is NO different than any other job.. or any other civilian’s life. Just because you have someone to blame.. doesn’t mean you’re the only one out there.. the only family that’s got it rough.. and it doesn’t mean that military families are the only ones that have issues and hard times. People always want to blame their problems on someone/something else. It’s not just the military that screws people over. It’s not just the gov’t lady. Take a look at all the companies.. ie Enron.. etc.. you think those victims got it good?

Knock it off people. Let US worry about equipment.. supplies.. benefits and all that crap. There are people doing what they can to help those who need it. The military has more support groups, systems and money in place to support as much as it can. But the shit isn’t going to come to you. I’m sorry.. I don’t subscribe to your philosophy of all the military being treated like crap. I’m not.. my friends aren’t. People I work with aren’t.. and when something DOES come up that’s inconvenient.. you just gotta say to yourself.. ‘you know what? I CHOSE this life… it was my choice and I knew damn well what I was getting into.’ And if you didn’t.. well there’s your first problem.

The military has more opportunity than ANY COMPANY I HAVE EVER HEARD OF OR WORKED FOR. But it’s not for everyone. You’re right about that…. and you know what.. THE FACT that I enlisted and the FACT that my peers enlisted in a time of war.. means that there’s ONE more person out there who can replace your husband.. so he can come home and get out and you can go on with your lives while the rest of us who give a shit can take care of business… because despite what you may think about how we got here.. IT IS WHAT IT IS… we’re here. Deal with it.. make the most of it and MOVE ON. We can’t pick up and walk away. I don’t have the time, the patience nor the inclination to get into why we need to be there right now. I don’t give a rat’s ass how we got there.. point is. We’re there. I myself didn’t suppor the intiative.. but now that I know a helluva lot more than I ever thought I would know about that region of the world.. I’m damn glad we’re there. I’d be more than happy to direct you to some sources of information if you’d like to know more about what those people’s day to day lives are like. While we’re here complaining.. they’re dieing in mass numbers. I’m sorry.. but I have a problem with that. And if I can help.. even just ONE person whether it be an American, Afghanistani, Iraqi, Bosnian, African, etc etc etc etc.. .. then I will have served my purpose and made a difference.. an impact on someone else.. rather than just myself.

Not that it really matters.. but I have 4 family members that serve in BOTH theat